I’ll know them when i see them

As a blogger and avid reader of many blogs, I’ve always found fascinating the behavior of the trolls who frequent them.  Comment threads can provide a rich tapestry of behavioral pathology and often, particularly after a few drinks, I imagine a comment thread as a party, in which several of the guests appear to, for good reason, not get out much.  Just like any party, there are always groups and discussions that appear to require a wide berth, a loner or two accosting unsuspecting strangers, and occasionally, an unlikely but obviously doomed romance or two might even bloom.  Those are the more boring ones.  Other times, fights break out, someone is asked to leave, another storms out in a rage, and, once furniture starts flying, the police may even be called, and one is glad that the soiree in question is a virtual one and not unfolding in one’s living room.

That’s what makes it fun, though, because bad behavior is interesting, and often brings out both mental nimbleness and biting humor that never fails to delight.  Better yet, if you’re in the right company, someone will say something like, “And if you don’t like my language usage, well, stick it up your ass*,” obviating the need to reply to a particularly repellent troll for the moment, and freeing up valuable time to mix drinks.  Comic relief is plentiful, as there’s always a lampshade wearer with spelling issues, a host of topic-specific Johnny one notes who seem to have walked into the wrong house, and hilarity always ensues when the least likely, most antagonistic pair in the entire room ends up making out in a corner. 

Of course, I can only speak to the one thread I follow with any regularity, Glenn Greenwald’s Unclaimed Territory; dipping into anything more MSM-ish can be a harrowing Fun House of scary illiterates, and the lack of back-and-forth makes the trip as boring as it is alienating, and surely contrary to the point of comment threads as a concept.  Many times I’ve felt like crawling out a window, or claiming to have left something in the car, or whatever, but I always come back.

I know who throws good parties.  And when I get my first troll incident here, I’ll know I’ve arrived.

* Jebbie today at UT to the very deserving Vacca.


  1. heru-ur says:

    Another great one. You are getting better all the time, if that is possible.

    I was thinking about giving you your fist dust-up with that fool who claims he can hit me as I read that last line. But, think of the lost drinking time, eh?

    Anyway, keep it up. (ah, the writing, the writing!)

  2. cocktailhag says:

    Thanks, Heru…. The writing is easy; it’s the thinking of something to write that’s hard. Glad to see you go after that Vacca, too, when it strolled in today as though yesterday hadn’t happened.

    • heru-ur says:

      Need an idea? I got a million of them. Try this one on for size. Write about the drug war in your town. Give it a human face with names of Judges, lawyers, cops, cases, and so forth. A little humorous look at your city’s struggle.

      • cocktailhag says:

        It is a good subject, Heru, and I plan to do more with it, perhaps linked to the initiative that liberalizes further Medical Marijuana. I prefer ideas that require less work, naturally. It’s easy to come up with things like that, but sadly, keeping a hag in gin and Dippity-Do costs money, and after a long day of pounding on houses, pounding the pavement fails to entice, so I procrastinate. I have been toying with something on the housing market, particularly downtown, for which I’ve done 2 interviews and a decent amount of research, but I haven’t found a good news hook and things are changing so fast that my statistics are already dated.

        • heru-ur says:

          For your blog, I meant just take it out of the newspaper. That takes less work, but will seem real exotic to those of us far away. (and who cares about the home-boys anyway)

          If you got into it a lot, I find that a lot of lawyers have law blogs now and you can find some real interesting stuff on them.

          I did a small series on prosecutors once and used examples from the legal blogs I read. I should mention that I positively hate prosecutors.

          Well, enough cluttering up your place. See ya.

          • cocktailhag says:

            You’re no clutter, Heru… and I will look further. Hard to be funny about the Drug War, but it also isn’t always necessary to be funny, I suppose. (hail of vegetables incoming….) Sometimes I wonder what my mother would think of my blog if she were alive. “Cute. Especially the part about Hayley Mills. But how come almost every post has a reference to hookers?”
            Ah, one wonders about the unknowable.

  3. rmp says:

    I agree with heru-ur. My problem with the party you are describing is too much boredom and too little learning compared to the good ole days of 2007 and more than half of 2008. I seldom was bored and learned a lot. I don’t mind fowl (msp on purpose) language when it is used for entertainment. It’s so pedestrian when used for insult.

    Bad and inventive behavior is fun. The bores attending the party are keeping away too many who could make it a much better party. Can you find more hags to join us and really liven things up and embarrass those bores enough to cause them to leave or only occasionally visit?

    • cocktailhag says:

      Hags aren’t as plentiful as one might think. What I’ve noticed are personal conflicts that are carried over from day to day, which isn’t always the case, but has been lately. Still, I do find it funny at times to see flashes of anger from an unexpected source, even though more useful discourse often gets pushed aside by it. Still, I wouldn’t point to a steady decline. There are ups and downs, but at the moment the weather could have a bit to do with it. (Hag Weather Theory #374)

  4. heru-ur says:


    You hit the nail on the head. I think Glenn should do a lot more house cleaning. Perhaps I should be the first one banned, but even so; he should clean house once in a while. I have said this to him several times in the open forum — I never e-mail anyone.

    I am also getting a tad weary of it, perhaps I should refrain from posting for a while.

    By the way, this comment thingy here is much better than at UT.

    • cocktailhag says:

      Sssssh, Heru. Keep talking like that and bernbart and pieceofcake might show up, and WordPress would think they are Nigerians. And don’t stop commenting at UT. I like your comments even when I disagree with you, which is not infrequently….

      • heru-ur says:

        “not infrequently”!

        But lordy, lordy how can a bright young lad like you be wrong that often? Oh well, even the bright ones have their blind spots.

        Could be the drinking though. Ya, that’s the ticket.

    • rmp says:

      Glenn has chosen the route of only banning when he deems it absolutely necessary. I agree with that. Once you go further, you have a very difficult time determining the dividing line and it usually becomes a moving target that hurts the threads more than help them. I certainly don’t see any value in banning you. I enjoy many of your postings.

      • heru-ur says:


        If I were Glenn, I would give folks like me a few warnings not to engage in endless pissing contests and do a month long “time out” if that did not work. Then a total ban the second time.

        I find that I have a weakness; ignoring insults.

        But, you are correct in that Glenn ain’t a gonna do it that way.

        Hmmmm, but Hag might — I’ll need to be careful.


        • cocktailhag says:

          Are you kidding? Aside from being a free speech absolutist (for myself, particularly) I actually welcome conflict, and feel like chopped liver if I can’t muster any. Yes, you did have a rather unseemly battle or two here lately, but we all have those days….

      • cocktailhag says:

        I agree, RMP. Usually a firm rebuke from Glenn smoothes things over, and that’s as it should be. I can think of several people there whom I like and respect an awful lot who would have been tossed under stricter rules. As my mom used to say, describing me, no less, “Often a boor, but never a bore.” Birds of a feather….

  5. rmp says:

    Dirty Harry who thinks he’s perfect doesn’t like his party to be criticized. He wouldn’t last long on UT.

    Reid to liberals: Back off

    • cocktailhag says:

      Gad, as though my disgust and loathing for Harry wasn’t bad enough already. Sheesh, Joe Lieberman would be as good in that post. The UT idea is a great one; I’d love to see Iokannan or Arne flatten Reid without breaking a sweat.
      First Daschle, now Reid. Is it possible for the Dems to be dumber or more simperingly compromising in their choice of leaders? I think not.

  6. Bill says:

    I apologize if I have offended anyone here.

  7. Bill says:

    Well, he really pissed me off when he went after me for trying to help him. One of my pet peeves is when someone asks for help with a question and then proceeds to argue with the answer you give.

    My language does get attrocious at times but most of the time when I let loose, it’s on purpose and for a reason.

    The fights among regulars irritates me more than trolls. It seems to be the same 3-4 people, day in and day out.

    As “Myrna” would say, dey so stooopid.

    • cocktailhag says:

      I’ve been hearing that same complaint a lot; it pisses me off, too. It’s as though the grudge du jour is more important than the topic at hand, for people who usually know better. The language isn’t the problem, but the relentlessness is. Everyone wants to be the new Kitt and Bucky.

    • heru-ur says:


      If Glenn banned that sort of behavior (not people, rather behavior) and then enforced it with 30 day suspensions from posting at UT, his comment area would be much better.

      You have “pull” with him, suggest it.

      This would not be censoring. This would be making everyone not engage in personal attacks. (or at least not letting it run on and on)

  8. Bill says:

    Male ego.

    Males would be a lot better off if we had less ego and more libido.

    Hey…that would be a good name for a rock gpoup!

    Men with Libido and Who Know How to Use It.

    (ever see Men With Banjos Who Know How to Use Them?)

    Lookie here …. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlqQ1_vZVE

    Guaranteed to git your toes poppin.

    • cocktailhag says:

      Those guys were great; I’d never seen them before. Maybe it is an ego thing, but I always think it’s part of a preexisting bad mood, when people jump into arguments so easily. I’ll often see an opening volley and think, “oooh, don’t say that to ______, a thread-swallowing, chair throwing brawl will start.” And then it does.

    • Jim White says:

      But wait, didn’t I see a woman with them? She had a guitar, though, so it must be okay…

      Thanks for that. Steve Martin is truly multi-talented.

    • cocktailhag says:

      I liked the rubble pictures. Did you see on the front page about how “in these tough economic times, the last thing the homeless should be doing is going camping?” I love the onion.

  9. Bill says:

    I do also. Some of their stories are just incredibly realistic.

    Maybe that’s what’s wrong with us now.

    • cocktailhag says:

      Yes, often more realistic than what you see in the NYT, sadly. I think it’s remarkable that comedy has stepped in where the MSM no longer treads; i.e., skewering the powerful, pointing out the circularity and ridiculousness of conventional wisdom. Only the jester can poke fun at the king.

  10. NW Woods says:

    A suggested future theme: The recent outcome of the campaign by the creationists to further pervert the nation’s childrens’ textbooks.

    Surely this controversy will lure the trolls out from under the bridge.

    **State education board approves science standards
    New standards remove specific references to age of the universe.**

    By Laura Heinauer



    • cocktailhag says:

      Actually, I touched on a similar debate, about whether creationists could receive Master’s Degrees in “science,” also in Texas, naturally, in a post a while back, “Dumbass Nation.” I’ve followed this textbook thing for years; where the redneckiest state of all gets to essentially censor the nation’s textbooks… clever strategy, really, taking advantage of consolidation in the publishing industry.
      Good article.

  11. Bill says:

    “If Glenn banned that sort of behavior (not people, rather behavior) and then enforced it with 30 day suspensions from posting at UT, his comment area would be much better.

    You have “pull” with him, suggest it.

    This would not be censoring. This would be making everyone not engage in personal attacks. (or at least not letting it run on and on)”
    - heru-ur

    First, how many of us would be willing to criticize the activity while it was happening? Peer pressure might work better than banning or timeouts.

    Glenn has enough on his plate without having to babysit a bunch of adults. We should be able to police the joint ourselves. Just the people here, plus a couple more should do it if those that are doing it see an organized effort from their peers.

    It’s something to think about. It would only take a couple of times and the regulars who participate in these pissing contests would get the message.

    I’m not talking about troll v anyone. I’m talking about UT regulars who can’t seem to either ignore or get alone with certain regular other posters. We know who they are.

    Trolls, IMO, are fair game.

  12. Bill says:

    Actually, all it would take is a form letter that several people would have authority to post at their discretion by those who have signed it. One post with a dozen signatures could be written and pasted into a thread at the appropriate time. While I think having 12 people doing it would be unwieldy, those 12 could give permission to 2-4 individuals to use at their discretion and only when it gets out of hand.

    Getting the old scarlett letter would be a major kick in the ass to most of the people there.

  13. Bill says:

    Something like this..

    @__________________ @___________________
    Your behavior in this thread does not adhere to the standards of this blog. Please desist immediately.

    Thank you.

    (then twelve or more signatures listed one on top of another for effect)


    Just a simple thing that isn’t personal or longwinded. I truly believe it would be effective if it were signed by the right people.

    • cocktailhag says:

      Hmmmm. I worry that that might only enhance the “goon squad” myth, and add to the “poor lil’ me” thingy that these trolls already have….. And if it’s a pair of regulars behaving badly, the result might be the same. Someone’s always accusing someone of being the Hall Monitor, which isn’t a mantle I’d like to wear, especially with curlers.

      • Bill says:

        I am not advocating the letter to be used against trollery.

        I would be used in an attempt to stifle those periodic family spats that seem to crop up in every thread lately.

        Trolls would not be affected by peer pressure. Regulars might be.

        • cocktailhag says:

          Well, a little of this already seems to be happening… at least producing a guilty comment or two from the culprits. Thing is, I don’t mind being a hag, but I hate to be a bitch. Especially when it’s somebody I like. I think of my own intemperate comments, and feel unworthy of casting stones. There’s that pesky archive thing, and all. Admittedly, though, when confronted with actual, corporeal family that behaved that way, I’ve always handled it much more sternly.
          I have tried a “boys, boys,” admonition in my most gin-soaked voice the other day, but it didn’t really work. It’s kind of like trying to separate humping dogs. Would a hose do the trick?

  14. Bill says:

    Oh….the Hall monitor thing…….that’s why there would be 10-12 signatures on it. No one can gripe about any one person being a prick.

    One would post the letter but all 10-12 would take responsibility.

    The same person would not always post the letter, either.

  15. timothy3 says:

    CH, I guess I’m in the minority here but I enjoy the–what?–degeneracy that can accompany a collapse in UT’s commentariat. Although I don’t often get to read the entirety of the comments there, I usually am fascinated by what the posters are doing, both to themselves and others.
    I’m conflicted, I suppose. I genuinely appreciate the quality that most commenters bring to the discussion–plenty of interesting links, etc.–but I can’t help but be drawn (sometimes), like a rubber-necked driver, to the scene of the accident.
    By the way, Hag, I am in awe at your facility for using language as it ought to be used–a fluidity that enlightens and illuminates, rather like those illuminated manuscripts of the past.

    • cocktailhag says:

      I kind of like the flame wars too, at times. Some commenters are cute when they’re angry. Thanks for your appreciation of my writing…. did the illuminated manuscripts mention, say, hookers, blow jobs, and shit all the time?

      • timothy3 says:

        The illuminated manuscripts I’m thinking of, yeah. There’s a scene in I Claudius where Caligula gifts Tiberius with some illuminated pornography. Don’t know what the Carthaginians might’ve thought of it.
        Moving on, good ol’ Byzantium Empire: when they weren’t creating images, they were illuminating minds in other ways (and I’m thinking of the East rather than the West).

        • cocktailhag says:

          As you get older, it gets harder to see your porno, so the illumination is probably a good thing….. I have a new post up.

          • timothy3 says:

            “As you get older, it gets harder to see your porno”–ain’t it the truth. And that, I suppose, is probably a good thing. I don’t really know, except to say that I have no/few complaints about the whole thing.
            I’m off to read your next post.

  16. Chris Sinnard says:

    Heru-ur said to check this blog out, so I did.

    So, what’s going on in this here thread?

    Speaking of trolls, I just threw out some chum to UT, lets see if I get any bites. I won’t comment if I do, because lately I’ve been trying not to stink up Glenn’s UT posts until he makes a new one or it has 300+ letters. Usually by letter 300 the usual suspect has said something racist and is already being challenged anyway, so I just throw fuel on the fire and watch as it spreads to the next post.

    • heru-ur says:


      I had noticed that you were waiting till the thread was dead.

      Bamage went after you today, totally ignoring who threw the first stone on that thread, and the fact that that you waited till the thread was essentially over.

      Hmmm. I wonder why he did that.

      • Chris Sinnard says:

        He is part of the oinkex amen corner. They all apologize for and forgive oinkex’s racism because oinkex is Palestinian.

        I think it is hilarious that they are crying for moderation when it is always the same person making racist generalizations about white people between his self-indulgent pity parties that get things started among “regulars”. The way oinkex consistently makes racist comments about whitey makes me curious as to what he thinks about other groups like you-know-who, associated with oppressing his family.

        • heru-ur says:

          I have heard the bullshit that only white men can be racist; and that is all it is — bullshit.

          The thing that bothers me is that he pushes all the time and then runs to momma whining when the blow-back comes. Just like my youngest brother did — back in the day.

    • cocktailhag says:

      Ah, I’ll have to go over and have a look-see, after I bang out the post that’s been rattling around in my head since yesterday. Thanks for dropping in, Chris, and welcome.

  17. timothy3 says:

    Ooh, CH, see what you’ve started?

  18. Chris Sinnard says:

    I personally prefer the old-school troll definition of regular who baits newbies into an argument. On other forums those were the trolls I noticed the most. People who had 30,000 forum posts in an unrelated section of the forums and come to the section you frequent to go trolling for fish. That forum wasn’t about Israel though, whose hasbara squad totally changes the way the game is played and fits in with the more modern troll definition as one who does some sort of drive-by one-time post to try and start shit and seeing if there are any takers.

    • cocktailhag says:

      Chris, I guess I don’t quite see trollery, and flame wars, quite the way you do. There are people, and Omooex is certainly among them, who have their “pet” issues, and get a little too overboard with them. Nonetheless, I don’t discount everything someone writes because I disagree with them.
      As for “amen corners,” I don’t see that at all. Ask five UTers, and you’ll get five opinions, in my experience. As a former Republican/Libertarian whom age and experience has pushed further and further left, I believe in the possibility of growth and change through dialogue and exposure to different perspectives, including yours, and also including our token Palestinian.

      • heru-ur says:

        Yes, but there is the little daily passive-aggressive digs at others. Perhaps those sorts of things never bother you, but they do me.

        So how many does a man take before the shit hits the fan? That is the question. Or, perhaps the question is why does he do it? Is it because he can not win a straight argument and hence prefers to stir the pot?

        • cocktailhag says:

          Well, Heru, you ordinarily fall into the much-desired “cute when angry” category, so I cut you a lot of slack in flaming. Your Vacca takedowns, whatever they lost in frequency, were spot on, and I liked them. I found myself cheering you, and somewhat relieved that I wouldn’t have to step in. (Step in you know what, that is….)
          I hope it isn’t me tossing P/A digs your way… I prefer a more direct approach; the brick in the handbag.

          • heru-ur says:

            The “brick in the handbag” approach! Yes, that is why I like you.

            I don’t really mind those who call me an idiot or whatever — the wife does that also. I mind the sneaky little underhanded shits.

        • cocktailhag says:

          I hope your wife only calls you those thing when you deserve it. I do think that the purse brick scared Shooter away from me. He sat still for merciless clobberings after the first five or so, pretty much forever. Nobody else has that problem, but I’ve gotten a lot less confrontational over there lately. I even went so woodstock that I paid bernbart a compliment. Maybe it’s the weed.
          Anyway, new post up.

      • Chris Sinnard says:

        Sorry but I disagree in that I don’t consider being a white-hating racist a pet issue, nor do I see it as growth. I see it as undermining and the antithesis of what most people that comment there believe, and believe they have found a nice clean way to resolve their dissonance by saying it is all heru-ur and I’s fault. Works out well that way, shifting blame away from oinky while making us look like the bad guys. what I find most amusing is that it still doesn’t work and other people accuse him of the same things (to which oinkus accuses them of being sockpuppets). I wonder why other people accuse him of that?

        Anyway, I’m ranting now and am going to assume that I don’t really have anything new to disclose to you all about why I think about oinkex the way I do. I’ve altered my behavior there a few times, all oinkus has done is stir up more shit and then swing from Glenn’s teabag when called out on it.

        • cocktailhag says:

          Well,as a white oinky from a comparatively privileged background, I guess I don’t know what racism or oppression would seem like on the receiving end, because its never happened to me. I’m rather uncomfortable calling a grievance based in relentlessly experienced reality “racism.” I’ve been hearing a lot of that from the Right, and I think it’s, delicately, a bunch of projection-laden horseshit. Racism is the luxury of the dominant race, not the dominated one. This seems self-evident.
          Being gay, I have had the opportunity to feel the effects of bigotry and being cynically tossed around as someone’s political football, and it can be deeply scarring as well as frequently infuriating. Sometimes it puts you in a bad mood.
          Anyway, I have a new post up…. read it and let me know what you think.

  19. Meremark says:

    ‘The Cocktailhag Incident.’ Sounds like a screenplay from the ’60s.

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